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	<title>Comments on: Learning the B language as an adult</title>
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	<link>http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/2008/11/17/learning-the-b-language-as-an-adult/</link>
	<description>Random scribbling about programming, translation, and Japan</description>
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		<title>By: Dierk Seeburg</title>
		<link>http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/2008/11/17/learning-the-b-language-as-an-adult/comment-page-1/#comment-442</link>
		<dc:creator>Dierk Seeburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 07:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/?p=617#comment-442</guid>
		<description>Good stuff, Ryan, thank you!  Catching up on my back log (b-log?) of translation blogs and this entry caught my eye.  One of the points you bring up lends itself to emphasizing why professionals in the translation industry deserve higher pay: Expert translators often obtain a graduate degree in a specialty area after getting a college degree in translation or language-related studies.  Another five years of gaining work experience focusing on your area of specialization adds up to at least 11 years of training and training-on-the-job.  These are the points to use whenever you sense an opportunity for a teaching moment with a client, potential customer, the press, friends, family, whoever - to educate them on the training required to be an expert in our profession which makes global business possible in the first place!
Spread the good word,
Cheerio,
Dierk</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good stuff, Ryan, thank you!  Catching up on my back log (b-log?) of translation blogs and this entry caught my eye.  One of the points you bring up lends itself to emphasizing why professionals in the translation industry deserve higher pay: Expert translators often obtain a graduate degree in a specialty area after getting a college degree in translation or language-related studies.  Another five years of gaining work experience focusing on your area of specialization adds up to at least 11 years of training and training-on-the-job.  These are the points to use whenever you sense an opportunity for a teaching moment with a client, potential customer, the press, friends, family, whoever &#8211; to educate them on the training required to be an expert in our profession which makes global business possible in the first place!<br />
Spread the good word,<br />
Cheerio,<br />
Dierk</p>
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		<title>By: Tonya Bamberger</title>
		<link>http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/2008/11/17/learning-the-b-language-as-an-adult/comment-page-1/#comment-449</link>
		<dc:creator>Tonya Bamberger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 14:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/?p=617#comment-449</guid>
		<description>Greetings, Ryan. I was directed to your blog by Cary Strunk (I studied J-E translation with him). I&#039;ve read some of your other posts and find them quite interesting.

As for pronunciation, I&#039;ve read an article that says children have difficult pronouncing or hearing the sounds in foreign languages from as early as age 5, because by then a child has learned to focus on only the sounds relevant to his or her native language. When I was teaching English to Japanese first-graders, I noticed that those students had trouble pronouncing or differentiating between the English &quot;r&quot; and &quot;l&quot; sounds.

I think that pronunciation is a skill to be mastered. Like you, I started studying Japanese a little later in life (around age 20). I met many people who lived in Japan for years and could not pronounce Japanese well (or could barely even form a sentence), and I think what it boils down to is how willing one is to become better at a language. I was pretty good at mimicking the Japanese language when I began learning it, but there were many problem areas (the short vowel sound, the &quot;r&quot; sound, etc.), and I had to tackle each problem area one by one and get through it. I would sit and repeat words over and over again until I got the ok from a Japanese friend. I still try to improve on my pronunciation and feel it&#039;s far from perfect, but it took a lot of work to get to where I am now.

The unwritten translation &quot;rule&quot; is to translate only into one&#039;s native language. If that&#039;s true, then only a passive understanding of the B language is really necessary to translate. In the in-house translation/interpreting world, however, this is not the case. About 50% of what I translate is into Japanese, and I have to interpret primarily into Japanese for meetings. My Japanese isn&#039;t perfect, but as long as I make an effort to communicate the information to the best of my ability, it&#039;s good enough. I&#039;m thankful for the opportunity, because it&#039;s quite interesting, and I&#039;m learning a lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greetings, Ryan. I was directed to your blog by Cary Strunk (I studied J-E translation with him). I&#8217;ve read some of your other posts and find them quite interesting.</p>
<p>As for pronunciation, I&#8217;ve read an article that says children have difficult pronouncing or hearing the sounds in foreign languages from as early as age 5, because by then a child has learned to focus on only the sounds relevant to his or her native language. When I was teaching English to Japanese first-graders, I noticed that those students had trouble pronouncing or differentiating between the English &#8220;r&#8221; and &#8220;l&#8221; sounds.</p>
<p>I think that pronunciation is a skill to be mastered. Like you, I started studying Japanese a little later in life (around age 20). I met many people who lived in Japan for years and could not pronounce Japanese well (or could barely even form a sentence), and I think what it boils down to is how willing one is to become better at a language. I was pretty good at mimicking the Japanese language when I began learning it, but there were many problem areas (the short vowel sound, the &#8220;r&#8221; sound, etc.), and I had to tackle each problem area one by one and get through it. I would sit and repeat words over and over again until I got the ok from a Japanese friend. I still try to improve on my pronunciation and feel it&#8217;s far from perfect, but it took a lot of work to get to where I am now.</p>
<p>The unwritten translation &#8220;rule&#8221; is to translate only into one&#8217;s native language. If that&#8217;s true, then only a passive understanding of the B language is really necessary to translate. In the in-house translation/interpreting world, however, this is not the case. About 50% of what I translate is into Japanese, and I have to interpret primarily into Japanese for meetings. My Japanese isn&#8217;t perfect, but as long as I make an effort to communicate the information to the best of my ability, it&#8217;s good enough. I&#8217;m thankful for the opportunity, because it&#8217;s quite interesting, and I&#8217;m learning a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: MT</title>
		<link>http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/2008/11/17/learning-the-b-language-as-an-adult/comment-page-1/#comment-448</link>
		<dc:creator>MT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 06:26:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/?p=617#comment-448</guid>
		<description>Ah, sorry for my first comment, Ryan! If only English were my B language there’d be some excuse…

I know a German who learned English as an older teen and has no discernable accent, but as you say: “they will tend to make very occasional slips.” And, sure enough, one year at Thanksgiving he couldn’t remember the word for turkey “baster” and it flummoxed him. It wouldn’t have bothered a native speaker so much. I started learning my B language(s) at the age of 19 and would be thrilled if not remembering the word for “baster” were my Achilles’ heel. But no such luck. I’m just proud that they can’t guess I’m American.

One of the best things about being a translator (in addition to being my own boss, working from home, getting to do different kinds of texts all the time, and seeing people’s naughty corporate secrets) is that people actually PAY me to improve my language skills. Every time I parse a sentence or look up a word I think, “ah, they are paying me to do this!” For a language-learning geek, that is a true blessing! Thanks for the great post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, sorry for my first comment, Ryan! If only English were my B language there’d be some excuse…</p>
<p>I know a German who learned English as an older teen and has no discernable accent, but as you say: “they will tend to make very occasional slips.” And, sure enough, one year at Thanksgiving he couldn’t remember the word for turkey “baster” and it flummoxed him. It wouldn’t have bothered a native speaker so much. I started learning my B language(s) at the age of 19 and would be thrilled if not remembering the word for “baster” were my Achilles’ heel. But no such luck. I’m just proud that they can’t guess I’m American.</p>
<p>One of the best things about being a translator (in addition to being my own boss, working from home, getting to do different kinds of texts all the time, and seeing people’s naughty corporate secrets) is that people actually PAY me to improve my language skills. Every time I parse a sentence or look up a word I think, “ah, they are paying me to do this!” For a language-learning geek, that is a true blessing! Thanks for the great post!</p>
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		<title>By: Corinne McKay</title>
		<link>http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/2008/11/17/learning-the-b-language-as-an-adult/comment-page-1/#comment-447</link>
		<dc:creator>Corinne McKay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 04:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/?p=617#comment-447</guid>
		<description>Great post, Ryan!! This is an issue I think about a lot now that I have a kid ( who is not that excited about learning a second language!) as well. In one sense, I found that when I taught high school French, the kids who had taken foreign languages in elementary school were almost invariably better at languages as teenagers, even if they had dropped the foreign language completely between, say, 4th and 9th grade. On the other hand, there&#039;s hope; I&#039;ve met lots of Americans (and hopefully I fit this category too!) who didn&#039;t start learning French until age 12+ as is the unfortunate norm in schools here, and who still managed to become quite fluent/near-native.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, Ryan!! This is an issue I think about a lot now that I have a kid ( who is not that excited about learning a second language!) as well. In one sense, I found that when I taught high school French, the kids who had taken foreign languages in elementary school were almost invariably better at languages as teenagers, even if they had dropped the foreign language completely between, say, 4th and 9th grade. On the other hand, there&#8217;s hope; I&#8217;ve met lots of Americans (and hopefully I fit this category too!) who didn&#8217;t start learning French until age 12+ as is the unfortunate norm in schools here, and who still managed to become quite fluent/near-native.</p>
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		<title>By: Judy Jenner</title>
		<link>http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/2008/11/17/learning-the-b-language-as-an-adult/comment-page-1/#comment-443</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy Jenner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/?p=617#comment-443</guid>
		<description>You are a fabulous example that there are always exceptions to the rules of language learning. :) I am one of those exceptions, too, as I moved to the U.S. at age 19 and was born in Austria, and grew up in Mexico. I guess I fall in the trilingual category, citizen of the world, etc. -- all the good stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are a fabulous example that there are always exceptions to the rules of language learning. <img src='http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  I am one of those exceptions, too, as I moved to the U.S. at age 19 and was born in Austria, and grew up in Mexico. I guess I fall in the trilingual category, citizen of the world, etc. &#8212; all the good stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Ginstrom</title>
		<link>http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/2008/11/17/learning-the-b-language-as-an-adult/comment-page-1/#comment-444</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Ginstrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 23:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/?p=617#comment-444</guid>
		<description>@MT

I didn&#039;t mention target language because this article is specifically about the B language :). But I don&#039;t think that there&#039;s an age cutoff for translating into a second language; it&#039;s just that very few people learn a foreign language as adults and go on to write it like natives -- they tend to hit a point of diminishing returns, and fossilize.

I should point out, though, that the J-&gt;E situation is rather unique in that the vast majority of J-&gt;E translation is done by native speakers of Japanese. Nearly all of the English they write is distinctly non-native (to the point where &lt;a href=&quot;http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/2007/09/04/why-i-hate-doing-native-checks/&quot;&gt;rewriting English translations done by Japanese&lt;/a&gt; is a major industry here), but they&#039;re getting paid... Some of them eventually learn to produce acceptable English translations, even though nearly all of them started learning English after the so-called critical period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@MT</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t mention target language because this article is specifically about the B language <img src='http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> . But I don&#8217;t think that there&#8217;s an age cutoff for translating into a second language; it&#8217;s just that very few people learn a foreign language as adults and go on to write it like natives &#8212; they tend to hit a point of diminishing returns, and fossilize.</p>
<p>I should point out, though, that the J->E situation is rather unique in that the vast majority of J->E translation is done by native speakers of Japanese. Nearly all of the English they write is distinctly non-native (to the point where <a href="http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/2007/09/04/why-i-hate-doing-native-checks/">rewriting English translations done by Japanese</a> is a major industry here), but they&#8217;re getting paid&#8230; Some of them eventually learn to produce acceptable English translations, even though nearly all of them started learning English after the so-called critical period.</p>
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		<title>By: MT</title>
		<link>http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/2008/11/17/learning-the-b-language-as-an-adult/comment-page-1/#comment-446</link>
		<dc:creator>MT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 22:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/?p=617#comment-446</guid>
		<description>A key point that you did not address is that you (and Chris in the first comment) both translate from Japanese INTO English. The real question is: what age is the cut-off for learning your target language, not your source language?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A key point that you did not address is that you (and Chris in the first comment) both translate from Japanese INTO English. The real question is: what age is the cut-off for learning your target language, not your source language?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/2008/11/17/learning-the-b-language-as-an-adult/comment-page-1/#comment-445</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ginstrom.com/scribbles/?p=617#comment-445</guid>
		<description>The &quot;critical period&quot; hypothesis (or whatever they like to call it) is, as you rightly point out, full of baloney for the most part. I speak Japanese fairly fluently and translate it to English, and I started learning at the very post-critical age of 26.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;critical period&#8221; hypothesis (or whatever they like to call it) is, as you rightly point out, full of baloney for the most part. I speak Japanese fairly fluently and translate it to English, and I started learning at the very post-critical age of 26.</p>
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